Discussion Episode 20: Jen’s LARP Experience
It is with great pleasure that we welcome Jen back to the podcast! She’s been away due to a scheduling conflict, and for the past few months has been exploring the wild and woolly world of White Wolf Live Action Roleplay. She sits down with Kevin, Brandon, and CJ to discuss her feelings on the Camarilla LARP. Unfortunately, Jen’s experience was less than ideal. Listen in to hear about her experiences!
Relevant Notes
- The Camarilla
- White Wolf
- Des Moines Derby Dames Rollerderby
- Mage the Awakening
- Vampire: The Requiem
- Werewolf: The Forsaken
- Changeling: The Lost
- Metagaming Discussion
- Scientology – OT3
- MCSE
- Camarilla Addendum
- RPGA
- Bodycount
- UT (Unreal Tournament)
- Camarilla Wiki
- “Dick Fingers“
- Japanese Bondage (NSFW)
- Proxy after-action report: Full Writeup – Order of Events (outline) – Assault Results
- Blackleaf (Dark Dungeons)
- The Map
- MSNBC
- The Daily Show
- NPR
- League of Legends
- Anne Rice
- Twilight
- Jeepform
Special note:
Turns out you can’t just look up the FBI Cult Watch List. Funny that. Several people within the Camarilla have claimed that the LARP is on that list, but as far as we can tell, there’s no way to verify that information. It’s mostly likely a rumor. Update Jason Morningstar was kind enough to point us towards . Very informative, and makes it seem very likely the FBI is not watching the Cam at all.
Crunchy Bits!
- Intro music provided by
- Outro Music Brand New Sucker by Jonathan Coulton
A brief note about our comments:
The comments section is closed for now. We got a lot of great feedback! From my experience with the Internets, I’m guessing most of what needed to be said has been said. From here on out we’ll just be getting repeats on these basic themes. If you’d like to discuss this episode more, I welcome you to head to our forum, which is much more loosely moderated.
Podcast: |
Tags: Anne Rice, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Changeling: The Lost, Des Moines Derby Dames, Jack Chick, Japanese Bondage, Jeepform, Jen, LARP, Mage The Awakening, MCSE, Metagaming, RPGA, Scientology, The Camarilla, Twilight, Unreal Tournament, Vampire: The Requiem, Werewolf: The Forsaken, White Wolf, Zap Brannigan
As a note, I did end up going to the Ames LARP once so far and I had a very positive experience there. I haven’t “played” there yet but I spent a lot of time interviewing members and was impressed by their professionalism and poise. I heard the phrase “life before LARP” frequently and was pleased to see a dedication to story and character development. No guarentee that it will be vastly different but I’ll check it out and report back soon.
very informative podcast!
i’m a little scared by the fact that i probably gamed with some of the people mentioned. i’m a little sad that it sounds like a lot of really cool people i did game probably arn’t playing anymore.
Body Count sounds hilarious.
interesting episode. i’ve always thought LARPing sounding interesting or cool… in theory. It’s good to know I’m not missing out on what I thought might be cool about it.
I’m curious, Jen: maybe it’s cool early yet, but have you been excommunicated from the Camarilla?
Great Episode. I used to be in the camarilla and actually had the, lets go with pleasure, of playing with some of the people of Des Moines. From what you talked about, your experiences seemed almost exactly the same as what I had. Overall, the whole thing left a bad taste in my mouth.
The Camarilla is organized primarily on a local basis. Experiences from local game to local game will vary.
Disclaimer: I am a very involved member of the Cam in the same general region, the Great Lakes Region. LARP is a great roll playing experience. Like any and all RPG’s, it depends greatly on the group you are gaming with. Making a decision about gaming based on an experience with one group, is like making a judgment about all people of a particular ethnicity on the basis of meeting one of them. I would like to offer you the chance to come to Chicago and see what our game is like. Mage (which I run in Chicago) is the day game on 2nd Saturdays. It is followed by Vampire the Requiem. For a full schedule of games in the Chicago domain, please see http://wiki.white-wolf.com/camwiki/index.php?title=Chicago,_IL
I’m amazed at what I am hearing in this podcast. It’s almost 180 out from what is typical.
Also, I respectfully suggest to you that not all meta-gaming is ‘bad’. Any OOC discussion of a game could be considered meta-gaming. Being made aware of things your character would know that you as a player might not be aware of yet, is not a ‘bad’ thing. In my opinion, this is ‘good’ meta-gaming.
Some domains do still give XP for costuming and roll play. Chicago does. That decision is usually venue specific, and is usually at the discretion of the ST.
Downtime XP can be up to 3 xp per downtime action. Most of the domains that I have visited do not see 95% of plot and action occur in downtime actions. Far from it. The vast majority of that in Chicago happens at game.
The one thing I heard that I found to ring true is that many of us DO talk obsessively about game. It’s a big part of our culture. However, it doesn’t stop me from having a day job. It doesn’t stop me from having two partners that I love dearly. It doesn’t stop me from having a life outside of game. Not to make a joke of it, but you are in Iowa…. What else is there to do there – watch corn grow?
In the end, I hope you do decide to try gaming in the cam somewhere else. We are inclusive of everyone. Even people who, with no real experience with the org, say really mean things about us out of ignorance.
I did find your attitude to be patronizing and even more than a little insulting. I can tell you for example that many people in Chicago are professionals, CPA’s, people working on their doctorates, System Administrators, and yes – people who work at McDonald’s, or have sales jobs. Arguing people’s class as a reason to not be involved a LARP is akin to saying not to associate with people of another ethnicity because they’re all lazy and want to rape all the white women. Seriously – that was just plain insulting.
W. Scott Lockwood III / US2009033817 / IL 013-D Chicago
Mage VST / aDC Web Monkey / GL aRST Forsaken
Mage aDST (Kenosha) / Cam Wiki Admin (Awakening)
Also,
ST’s are elected.
MC goes from 1, to 15.
I’m really wondering if you do any basic fact checking at all.
The first test is called Membershp.
The 24 hour rule doesn’t mean anyone has to leave game. Calling the 24 hour rule only means that *YOU* have decided not to talk about a particular subject for at least 24 hours so you can calm down.
Passing the ST test is NOT a requirement to be elected as an ST, but you must pass it within 3 months of being elected.
I would really like to give your podcast a chance, but I see very little positive coming out of it. I made it about 37 minutes into the podcast before I realized that you didn’t have anything positive to say.
Lastly, Bodycount is in Atlantic City.
I’m sure there’s people who’ve had positive LARP experiences with the cam, but Jen’s tales line up with my experiences completely and I live in central Missouri.
My buddy and I tried a few sessions together and he summed up our experiences nicely: “That was like masturbating with a cheese grater.” This was almost entirely due to the community and the attitudes the rules encourage.
To each their own, though.
Scott,
Thank you so much for your reply.
I first want to state that this podcast is about my personal experience with with Des Moines LARP. I state very clearly in the podcast that there could be good LARP out there and I also bring up the fact that I had one really great RP session towards the start of my LARP experience. I also stated that I did travel to Ames for a game and that I had a vastly different and all together positive experience there; which I intend to report on soon.
I did not intend to come off as patronizing or insulting but I can totally understand how some might see it that way. It is difficult to hear negative comments about ones hobby or associations.
As for your second post, I do intend to experience LARP elsewhere else and will report on my experiences. I do expect to have a very different and most likely positive experience in Ames. Basic fact checking is something that would typically be important to me but keep in mind that this was based on my experiences, If i was told something and it was generally believed to be true then I went with it. Details about how the system works, MC levels etc were less important here than the experience itself. ST’s are required to pass their test within 3 months of getting the position so in my mind it is a requirement.
My final note is on the statement that what your heard in my podcast is 180 from norm. That may be true however I interviewed and spoke to over 35 current and past Cam members and heard many many negative comments and some very positive ones. It may be different from your experience but it is what i saw, felt and heard.
Once again, thank you for listening (to part of it) and commenting. Stay tuned for my report on my experience with Ames LARP. I will try and make sure that I get the details right in the future.
~Jen
Another note:
There are some very intelligent and creative people in Des Moines. I do not intend to put forth the feeling that everything in Des Moiens is bad but I do want to convey my frustrations and concerns that I faced.
I know that this will not win me any friends with the Des Moines LARP but I know that the friends that I already have will understand and most likely agree with my observations.
I should also note that I had three members of the Des Moines LARP listen to this podcast before posting.
Like Scott, I am bothered by some of the sweeping generalizations that Jen has taken from one particular city.
I play with the Cam in Canada – more specifically, Ontario. Our game’s plot resolution certainly does not occur mostly in downtime, and the friends that I have made share far more with me than gaming – I just hosted one person’s baby shower (with not a word of game-talk), another and I spend a great deal of time talking professionally (we both work with troubled teens – her as a teacher, myself in a group home).
Personally, I don’t do the IC e-mail lists very much. Like Jen, I don’t have the time – I put in 40+ hours per week, and have other interests outside of the game (a sister with two young boys, a dog to walk, a garden to weed, books to read, friends to talk with). Honestly, I haven’t felt the loss. Yes, there is a whole lot that you can get involved with by hooking into the global game through e-mail… but it certainly isn’t vital to enjoy the game.
I do agree with her criticisms around ST’s not giving descriptions – the ST’s I have enjoyed playing most with have been the ones who give descriptions, get into character for NPC conversations, etc. But that has been true in *any* game I have played in – tabletop or LARP.
So… please – don’t characterize troubles as “part of the system” when really, they seem to be part of a single game (meaning: a single location).
p.s. the “metagame” debate has gone on for ages. Many of us will tell you that “not all metagaming is bad” – including one of the highest-standing ST’s in the organization (no longer ST’ing, unfortunately, as far as I know – Eddy could tell some very cool stories). Unfortunately, some cling to the “all meatgaming is teh EEEEVIL!!!!” – what can I say? In a wrold-wide organization of over 5000 people, there are going to be some disagreements.
Indrani: we actually did ask Eddy to talk with us on this topic but sadly he declined.
Jen,
Thank you for your reply. Given that mainstream acceptance of web journalism is happening right now in the world we live in, I do expect basic fact checking. To do otherwise is at best irresponsible. Again, I’d like to invite you to come to Chicago and get a broader picture of the Cam.
Lastly, if I seemed harsh, I will admit that have a hard time listening to people basely insult my friends out of ignorance. And yes, that’s exactly what you did from the part I heard. You talked to a small, tiny fraction of the Cam. 35 out of 5000 or more people is not even close to a representative sample. Additionally, most of the people you talked to are only in one area. Can you really not see how this does the rest of us a huge disservice? Your perception is at best very skewed.
I am curious what qualifies you to be a journalist in this area of gaming?
Hey Folks,
So, first, I appreciate that you guys took the time to discuss LARPing in general, and the Camarilla in specific. As a member of the glorious community we call ‘nerds’, I enjoy hearing perspectives from those outside of my personal social circle but within the community, and this podcast is no exception. I have a few issues with what I heard, however, and I was hoping I might shed some light there.
First, some background on myself. I joined the Camarilla in 2005 when I turned 18, having played in various games with Camarilla members for years prior to that. Since 2005 I have held numerous positions in the club, ranging from Global storytelling staff to Venue storyteller. I also met my fiancé through club activity, and have been in a steady – and monogamous – relationship with her for the last three and a half years.
So, all that being said, there were some inaccurate parts of this podcast which I think are going to offend (and possibly upset) some of those this podcast is talking about. Namely, many (not all, but many) of the topics which made the gentlemen exclaim, ‘That can’t be right’ or ‘You’re joking’ are at least partially incorrect.
First, the issue of hygiene – the reference is made early and often to the lack of cleanliness among LARPers. What’s somewhat amusing about that is the same joke is often made inside of the club itself. The truth of the matter, though, is that the trait is not exclusive to the LARP community. In truth, I haven’t even found it to be more prevalent amongst our games then outside of it. As a frequent visitor to comic book shops, conventions and video game stores across the USA, I can state firmly that gamers, comic book fans, LARPers and Sci-Fi enthusiasts all have a tendency to forgo the thirty minutes of bathroom maintenance most of us do daily. That’s a simple fact of the community.
Second, the issue of female LARPers being ‘damaged goods’. This was a point which I took rather personally, as my time in the Camarilla has introduced me to some of the most amazing, beautiful, insightful and creative creatures which the fairer sex has to offer. No matter how large a section of the Camarilla’s female population Jennifer may have encountered, I think it’s a gross mistake to characterize the club as drawing ‘damaged goods’. As with any international organization, the Camarilla fan club draws individuals from all walks of life, and one would be hard pressed to find any two female members with similar backgrounds and personalities.
As to the quality of gaming inside of the Camarilla… as Jennifer reminds us several times throughout the podcast, her experience revolves largely around the Des Moines Domain. Just as no two club members are the same, so too are no two Domains the same. Our club has games ranging from Honolulu, HI to Bangor, ME, and the environments of those games are just as varied as the cultures of the cities that host them.
In the end, I am sorry that Jennifer had such a poor experience with LARP. Considering the overwhelmingly positive influence the club has had on my life, I genuinely hope that as many people as possible will experience the same level of enthusiasm and joy that I do. Ultimately, however, I understand that different people enjoy different pastimes, and I don’t begrudge them that. Some people spend their weekends with people in costumes role playing, and some people spend them sitting around tables with dice, and some people spend them in football stadiums cheering, and some people spend them in the forest with tents.
Ultimately, they’re all just people enjoying themselves.
Thanks,
– Zack PW
Post Script: If you would still like to have that conversation, Jennifer, my e-mail address is linked to this comment. Feel free to drop me a line.
Scott,
I will say, once again, that this is based on my experiences and is thus subjective. I state several time and quite clearly that it is my experiences in the Des Moines LARP and I also state that i had a positive experience in Ames which I plan to explore soon.
Yes, my perspective is skewed but it is MY perspective. I never make a claim to be a journalist and this is not a news source. This is a hobby and I am more than qualified to discuss my experiences in a subjective way.
I assure you that I am not basely insulting anyone and I am certainly not ignorant of what went on. What I am doing is discussing my experiences, frustrations and observations in a subjective manner.
I am thinking of taking a journalistic and objective approach at some point. This podcast however, as I stated, is a review of my experience. If I were doing this for news or paper or class I would approach it differently.
Thanks,
Jen
Hey Jen,
Sorry you had a rough time. I hope you have a better experience in Ames. The above is absolutely true that games have different quality from locale to locale. I had a horrible time in some places and amazing experiences in other. As with any game, it comes down to the people you’re with.
There are problems that come with a global game that you have to put up with and there are some really amazing things too. But the same goes for smaller LARPs too. If you can find a group that you enjoy playing with, I encourage you to try to set aside as much of the bad things as you can, speak up about the things that need to be fixed, and just have fun.
Yes, I did decline to come onto the podcast. It was because I was asked to comment and address concerns about how the Camarilla was run, and I pointed out that I am not at all involved in the leadership of the Camarilla organization, and thus would be a poor resource for such a podcast. I’ve traditionally been very responsive to coming onto a variety of podcasts to talk about a variety of topics (especially because I’m a podcaster myself), but I’m so far out of the loop on how the Camarilla is run that I would be a poor guest on that topic.
However, as for metagaming, I did address this in a presentation I did at ICC 2008 called “Killing Sacred Cows.” There’s a copy of it on the Camarilla website: http://camarilla.white-wolf.com//index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=235&Itemid=46
Hope that helps clarify things!
Listening to the Podcast right now, and I’m glad to hear Jennifer state she’s going to try a couple of other games as well as one Convention. If Ames is one of the games you’re going to try, there is a good group of folks up there, having gamed with some of them when they lived in RDU. Any large scale organization is going to spring up some bad experiences. I’m just sorry to hear that you had a less than optimal experience the first go round.
Ms. Dixon
I have not had a chance to listen to the podcast yet (the length is the killer for me). I have been told directly about this.
I will offer myself to be interviewed for the podcast. I have been with the Camarilla since 1999. I have LARP’ed before that.
Yes. The Camarilla does have its faults. Yes, there are members of the Camarilla who will fit the stereotype. But this is also said of any organization. I have had good times and bad times in the Camarilla. Sometimes I wanted to strangle a player, other times I wanted to take them out for a drink for giving me the experience to do soul searching in myself to potray emotions deeply buried in myself.
That is why I believe the LARP is, to delve into yourself to look at and see emotions, to potray a character and see how it evolves. This is improvisational theater at it’s finest.
Again I will love to discuss with you (not argue but actually discuss) about your experience at the game and see if I cant show you a different side of the LARP experience
Sincerely
John Story
Brooksville Florida
Sorry you didn’t have fun with us Jen. You only came to Ling once so I really didn’t have much of a chance to ST for you, but Jed up in Ames also runs a good game. I’m sure he can show you some good Ling.
Hi guys! I would also like to offer myself up for interview if you’d be open for it for a female perspective from a Camarilla member in the Texas region – to show variants between regions and perspective.
I have done my own podcasts (on different topics, natch) and I am also a professional voice-over artist so I most definitely have a vocal presence if that was ever a concern.
I think that Jennifer addressed the comments quite well, and I find it unfortunate that her first impression of the Camarilla game was an unpleasant one, and I look forward to seeing follow-up podcasts on this topic matter in order to paint a more well-balanced picture on the good – and the bad – of the Camarilla.
(And ‘damaged goods’ ? Really? D=)
A couple of salient points,
The places on the map where there are no domains are called Dark Places, and you can go there. They may be dangerous, but my Mage PC has in fact visited Egypt, and was not massacred. Some places are more dangerous than others, but they are not automatic death. They are merely dark, cause there is no domain there.
You can in fact play a slave from the United State. You can play a Native American as well. You can play any ethnic background you wish to. You are not supposed to play a Nazi Torturer or an IRA bomber. I have seen a person portraying a Nazi, but it is to be avoided because it can make other players extremely uncomfortable without any good Role Playing coming of it. The holocaust isn’t something all players are comfortable with delving into.
Again, I’m sorry that you didn’t have fun with us.
First I want to say: THANK YOU!
To keep it to White Wolf; I am a Camarilla member of going on 5 years (joined Nov 2005). Prior to that I played in troupe games. Enough about me.
I am thankful you have expressed your opinions. Truth is, my husband and I found out about your podcast because it was posted to the Camarilla US national out of character e-mail lists. He and I sat here a thought:
“I’ve seen that.” / “I’ve lived in one of those.” / “I know that guy.” / “I know that kind of person.” / “I’ve been to a game like that.” / And the list goes on.
Your words while they may genuinely be “broad sweeping generalizations” hold true to an unfortunately large chunk of this club. What I’d like to point out is that they hold true to me in FLORIDA. Half way across the country and the circumstances are not so different in many ways. There will always be differing opinions when you try and play a game with people from all over the world (or all over the city). The problem is how many members of the Camarilla don’t want to admit it or don’t feel the need or desire to set it right.
I agree with a great deal of what you have said and I personally intend to use it to make this club better. I actually want to help the club change and grow. Yeah, it’s my soapbox and I’m trying to change a club based on gaming. It’s what I love though.
Again, thank you for having the balls to say this. Thank you to the other guys in the podcast for broaching the topic. You’ve made a listener out of me.
To Jen, LARP is not for everyone. The Camarilla is *really* not for everyone. I’m glad you went back. Try a con, if nothing else, the booze is usually good and I find them a refreshing excuse to plan a vacation to part of the US you might never have otherwise thought to go visit.
I don’t want to nitpick so I’m not going to go over each item that I agreed or disagreed with… and yes, there are things I disagreed with *gasp*. I just felt compelled to let you know that your experience is not unique, wrong, or unwelcome. There are members in the club of long standing who feel this way. What’s interesting is why we keep doing it.
How many times can I say thanks?
Fari Hekmat
US2005116893
Cam members also have a habit (as Scott did) of signing with domain/chapter info, their offices in the club (if any), links or related sundry, and a quote. My statements are my own and not a reflection of my positions as an officer or my bosses in the Cam. But the quote I will share.
“To a philosopher all news, as it is called, is gossip, and they who edit and read it are old women over their tea.”
– H. D. Thoreau
Thank you for clarifying that you do not consider this to be journalism. There were some in the club and on our email lists who were considering this to be journalism. While I didn’t view it as such, it helps a lot to have it directly from the source that this is not journalism.
I would like to again extend an open invitation to come try gaming with us in Chicago. We have awesome roll play, and various games to play. 1st through 4th weekends have game here, and I’m willing to bet that no matter which weekend you decide to drop in, you’ll have a very different experience.
Thanks again for answering me. I appreciate your willingness to have an open dialog.
I only want to address the “damaged goods” issue as one of the Camarilla women it refers to. It is remarkably easy for society (and yes, Jen, I’m categorizing you that way as a non-LARPer for trying it is not to become a part) to point at those – particularly women – who unabashedly share their problems as being “damaged” or some other equally unpleasant word that leaves one with the impression that they are undesireable. I am damaged goods myself. I fully admit it and point out that my “damage” occurred outside of the Cam and had nothing even remotely to do with it. I also point to the Cam as helping me to recognize said damage and having helped me to HEAL from it. Not only the people I have met through the Cam have helped me to heal but also the simple self-awareness that one garners through in-depth exploration of one’s imagination and personality. The creation and depictions of characters enables us to do that. And it’s remarkable how much one can get over stage-fright by regularly participating in acting when there is no audience because EVERYONE is acting which in turn leads one to be more confident in his or her self. My point is nearly every person on this planet is “damaged goods” – Cammies are just more willing to admit it and discuss it because we’re more in touch with who we are than most of society because our culture encourages exploration of the self.
Hi Jen,
Amusingly enough, I’m the ST that ran the 102 person proxy. I admit, I feel a bit mis-represented, as the notes you published were my notes in brief published to get folks back to playing asap. There was a 60 some odd page proxy result published a few days after that fully expands on each of the specific line items.
If you, or the blog, would care for a copy, please drop me a line and I’ll be more than happy to supply.
Cheers,
Jake
Howdy, folks.
I’ve been LARPing for a bit over a decade, now, and have been a member of the Camarilla for about that long. I’ve held various offices at various times, and have just recently assumed the mantle of Venue Storyteller for the Mage game that we hold in Charlotte, NC.
I’m also a fan of this podcast and Jen in particular, and I don’t really see anything wrong with the podcast as it was presented – which was as a conversation about one single city’s LARP group. She gave a very clear disclaimer both at the beginning and at the end that these were her personal opinions and that it was a discussion she was having based on from her observations on just one group/domain and the impressions that group gave her of how Camarilla LARPs work. She also stated up front that she’d spent nine months playing in her local game, so to my mind that’s significantly more than enough research of that domain’s game environment. This is a podcast that is, in part, about people’s personal opinions and there’s never a question of that. It was clearly stated and, to be frank, there’s no way to stop it. This LARP conversation was nowhere NEAR as harsh as ones I’ve heard on other podcasts. So, there’s really no reason for any of us LARPers to start fuming with rage to the point that we begin swallowing our own feet.
Be good enough to take what I’m saying here with a grain of salt, as I live halfway across the country from where all this happened, but I’ve got a few observations I’d like to make. In my opinion the only people who have the slightest reason to be upset are some of the ones whom she mentioned directly in the episode, from the sounds of things, that’s largely because they didn’t take sufficient interest in her to find out that she was involved in a podcast about RPGs where they discuss their opinions of them. Maybe some of them did, but I’m willing to bet some of the folks she talks about didn’t (or were dismissive about it). They’d have been aware of the possibility if they’d taken the time to get to know her and talk more about non-LARP stuff. But, then again, if they had, her experience might not have been quite so negative. I’m sure her comments could have been far worse than they were, and to tell the truth I think it would be best if it were taken in the spirit of constructive criticism. Because, as she said, she has been interested in opening up a dialogue about the problems she’s encountered.
Of course, not having been there I can’t really say where, when and with whom the specific breakdown in communication was between Jen and her domain, but it does seem clear there was a breakdown SOMEWHERE.
Now, that said, I made some notes about a few things I wanted to comment on as I listened. Hopefully that won’t cause this post to be the length of the Lord of the Rings cycle, but we’ll see. I haven’t heard about the “no talking to the press” rule, by the way – I think there’s policy about speaking FOR the club when talking to the press, but in this case you’re talking ABOUT the club, so I don’t think you’ve got anything to worry about on that front.
By and large, different STs have different skills. Some are good at description, some are good at dialogue and some are good at combat. One tries to do as well as possible at all elements of running games, but in my opinion the best thing an ST can do is to play to his or her strengths and work on the rest. It’d be great if we could take courses on how to set a scene and the other parts of Storytelling but unfortunately the time and resources tend not to be there.
Does that make it right to let things slide? Of course not. But it’s very difficult to keep it from happening. There ARE ways, but they take a lot of time and effort. From what I’ve heard there’s a trend in some of the games going on in Europe for them to pay a LOT more attention to setting details than is generally done in the States.
As a side note, when two or more players go off to do a scene on their own (whether during a game or not), the ST doesn’t necessarily have to set the scene or be present for it to take place – at those times, though, it’s a good idea for players to remember that they can frame scenes, too, so long as combat doesn’t erupt or buildings don’t explode or whatnot. For example, my PC in the Requiem venue is a German hematologist who studies the occult (yes, a vampire hematologist – who’da thunk it?). He is the owner of a medical research facility. Whenever he needs to have a private meeting with his fellow covenant members or with anyone else, the other players who will be involved in that scene and I find an unoccupied room and I describe what it’s like going into the facility, the staff there, the basement level where we meet and my PC’s laboratory (with all of its strange scientific equipment and occult paraphanalia). By and large, this level of PC narration is perfectly acceptable – I even can bring in minor NPCs if I need to (usually on the level of having staff members run minor errands for me that pretty much just helps set the scene).
The next thing I need to mention is that domain experiences can change. A lot of that has to do with the fact that the staff rotates. Coordinators and Storytellers will get burned out or decide to move on for other reasons and new officers will take their places. In a lot of the domains I’ve visited, a change of staff is, by and large, an annual experience. Sometimes it can be a bad thing and sometimes it can be a good thing – it can be hard to keep good STs in office for more than a year (often because they usually need to rest afterwards) but that goes for less-than-stellar STs as well. What it basically comes down to, though, is that every ST’s style is different (just like with tabletop RPGs). This is also part of the reason why I think resets can be a good thing! (Heck, if nothing else, they give me a chance to try to come to a satisfying ending for my PC and then try out a new one.) So, that said, you may find in a year or two that you’re having a completely different roleplaying experience in the same domain. So there’s always hope that things will improve.
Now, I’ve seen the social issue that you talk about at work – the way members of Cam domains can become ALL about the game ALL the time. That kind of thing can happen with any social club, really, and I’m thinking it probably also happens with religious cults. That’s why I try to break that mold whenever possible. One can easily be a Camarilla member and have a life outside of it. There IS a temptation folks will get to talk about the game constantly with the other players, and I’ve seen that affect players in my own domain before. The best way to combat that, I think, (aside from encouraging folks to get out and do other things and talk about other things on an individual basis) is for a domain to hold social events – I’ve even seen some events (and hosted a few, to tell the truth) at which talking about the LARP is forbidden! I think that kind of thing can help keep everything in perspective. Otherwise it is true that groups can enter the kind of downward slide you talked about.
Thankfully, though, they’re not all that way.
A lot of times our group has “Afters” (the thing where we go and hang out after the game). I’ve attended ones that take place at diners and whatnot, which were always fun for me. Here in Charlotte, we usually go hang out at the house of one or more friends who have very kindly opened them up for us into the wee hours of the night. I HAVE seen people go into private scenes to finish things up at Afters that weren’t finished during that evening’s LARP session, but just as often I see them hanging out or – for some reason – playing Magic: the Gathering (heck, maybe a balancing of one’s obsessions helps, too!). 😉
While I can imagine a scenario in which an ST decides to do most of his plot advancement via downtime, I’m pretty sure that’s not typical. What’s often more of a problem, especially with big groups (and particularly with regional or higher-level plots), is individual players falling through the cracks to the point that they don’t get to see a lot of the plotline and so to them it appears as though nothing is going on. In either case, as an ST I think it’s important to try to find ways to include as many people as possible while the actual LARP sessions are going on. Sometimes it has to be done through assistants – sometimes it has to be done by getting players to help encourage others in character to get involved with plots – and yes, that is a form of metagaming, but as you’d already pointed out on the podcast and other folks have pointed out in this response thread, not all forms of metagaming are EEEEEVIL. Thankfully, I’ve been lucky enough that most of the LARPs I’ve been to have had things going on during the actual sessions, themselves.
There IS a certain degree of paranoia in the organization about metagaming, but that’s mostly to do with the fact that players can have multiple PCs (which can never have anything overlap lest the PCs come too close to encountering each other and explode in a shower of confetti as the space-time continuum rights itself). The main reason I think metagaming can frighten folks in the Camarilla sometimes is because it causes a LOT of argument and a LOT of paperwork. Essentially, at that point reports have to be made and the Bureaucracy Golem is unleashed to wreak havoc on the townspeople. Unfortuanately, IC sharing of OOC info is something that’s tough to monitor and something that I’ve sometimes seen players do in both LARP and tabletop games, though I don’t think it goes on more in one case than the other.
So, about proxies… The only thing I really have to add is that I’ve seen proxies not only for major events (where, it’s true, character death is a possibility), but for individual character needs as well. Sometimes a PC will be visiting another PC because their players got to talking on an IC list and one wants to help the other out. Sometimes large IC groups hold meetings and people proxy to those locations. I’m not as familiar with soft proxies, but I can also tell you that with hard proxies, the fact that the PC can be killed like any local PC is spelled out in no uncertain terms ahead of time in the game’s literature when it’s explained what a proxy is. Anyone who submits their character to a proxy DOES run the risk of character death. But if the character survives, the player gets another cool thing to add to his/her character’s story. And from what I understand it is entirely possible to send your PC to one of the places overseen by the ST in charge of “Dark Places on the Map” and survive – it just takes a while because at that point you’re dealing with the Master Storytelling staff and they have a lot they have to take care of. And incidentally, I’ve seen far more proxied PCs survive than not.
I’ll admit that the “real-life-XP” system of Prestige we have in the Camarilla can seem a bit strange, but I’m sure plenty of other organizations have something similar. Mostly it’s just a way to reward people who do things to help the club (acting as officers, setting up charity drives, hosting socials, etc). It’s by no means a requirement. I have years go by that I don’t even care how much Prestige I have – mostly because when I want to do things for the club it’s because – get this – I actually WANT to do things for the club. What a concept, eh? 😉
Sometimes we DO get members or groups of members who are in it just to beat the crap out of other people’s characters and generally be jerks IC. If they’re met with a friendly playing environment that wants to engage with them, though, I’ve often found that they’ll back off, at least somewhat. Everyone is different of course. Sometimes I find myself wishing that we had PvE and PvP venues, just like MMO’s, but I have the feeling that kind of split would mean there wouldn’t be enough players in each. The idea still amuses me, though.
As far as I’m aware, of all of the old World of Darkness venues, right now only Masquerade is currently operating, but if they end up bringing back oWoD Mage I’d probably play it in a heartbeat. Changeling, too! But I still have things I like about the new World of Darkness.
The problem of a character suddenly increasing in ability much faster than in their backstory is something that happens a lot, and not just in LARP. I think that’s a problem that’s common to most games that use XP systems, to tell you the truth. So I think that if any solution to that may be forthcoming, it’s one that would change the way RPGs work as a whole. Now there ARE some games that do things a bit differently – heck, I think you guys may have played some of them on the podcast – but thus far the only one of those kinds of games I’ve heard about being in LARP form is Houses of the Blooded (which I haven’t had a chance to play as of yet).
The Camarilla’s approval system is something that’s been developing a lot over time. I finally used the approvals database for the first time as a player when I submitted my Masquerade character a month or so ago and I can tell you that it DOES require a Herculean effort! There’s LOTS of writing involved. But once all that writing is done, you hopefully have a very solid and developed character/storyline/etc, which is what they’re looking for when they sanction rarer items. And I think that the number one reason I hear for the existence of approvals is to make sure that things that are meant to be rare ARE rare, and that the rare things that are out there make some degree of logical sense. Also, I don’t think that the rare things are kept rare just because the canon as established by White Wolf says so – I think there must be plenty of places where the chronicle we’re playing deviates from canon – but because right now the Master Storytelling staff finds it easier to regulate a game this size if things are as close as they can get it. After all, new players entering the game will probably be expecting things to be at least somewhat in line with what’s been published.
I haven’t heard anything myself about not playing former slaves or Native Americans. I know that the Native American thing isn’t the case because I’ve seen people play them – we have a guy in our domain who’s a Native American in real life and whose Requiem PC is Native American, as well. I suspect the former slave issue is tied to something I once saw about not wanting players to be former slave-owners or Nazi torturers or whatnot. The context for that was that one of the big rules we have in the Camarilla is to make sure that when we play the game, we’re not making anyone uncomfortable in real life (whether they’re playing or not). Which is part of the recognition of the fact that it IS just a game and that playing out a particular idea isn’t as important as respecting folks as people. That’s part of the reason we have the “no touching without consent” rule.
Which brings us to the sex issue. A lot of us in the organization have heard of “the Camarilla Dating Service.” Heck, I even used it myself, once (with less-than-stellar results – that’s an ENTIRELY different story, though). All that typically is, however, is a joke about the fact that there are quite a few folks who meet through the Camarilla and end up dating each other. That’s not unusual, though. I mean, heck, we all know that sometimes people join book clubs, take dance lessons, go to church groups, etc. so that they can meet people – hopefully including that “special someone,” whoever that may be. Any social group will have its share of hook-ups.
Similarly, the whole love triangle thing is something that seems to happen more often in the sci-fi/fantasy/horror community – just go to a convention sometime and you’ll see what I’m talking about – so it’s only natural that it would occur in the LARP community as well. I haven’t heard of the group, but it doesn’t surprise me in the least!
The “it’s not cheating if it’s IC” thing, though, is NOT something that’s acceptable to all LARPers, or I’d even say to the majority of LARPers. If folks tried to do the swinging/meat market thing around here, they’d likely get thumped for it! So, I can tell you that the fact that Jen didn’t “break through that barrier” is NOT a failure on her part in the least! To tell the truth, I see it as a success!
Well, I think I’ve rambled on more than long enough, so I’ll bring this massive tome of a response to a close.
All in all, I’ve found that, as Jen discovered, the goals for LARP are about the same as the goals for tabletop gaming. There’s a lot of crossover – most of the LARPers I know are also tabletop gamers. It’s very true that not all LARPs are like Camarilla LARPs, and not all Camarilla LARPs are alike, either. Just like with a tabletop game, the quality of your experience is really going to come down to the group that you get to play with. I’ve been lucky enough to play with some pretty fantastic groups over the years, including the one I’ve started Storytelling for now.
So I say that if you think you’d like LARP but have had bad experiences, keep looking! It IS possible to hit on the right group of people and have a fun experience that’s often far more character-driven (and sometimes even theatrical) than a tabletop game ever is – that’s where the difference really comes in. In a good LARP, the players have a much better chance of driving the story and developing their characters. And I’d say that those who said Jen should invest more time likely didn’t grasp the issue. With LARPs, like with any game, it’s not the time you invest, but what you DO with that time that matters.
Well, this has been enough to fill at least one Ted Talk, I’m sure! Thanks again, Jen, Kevin and the rest of you guys, for bringing this stuff forward so it could be talked about! We now return you to your regularly scheduled response thread.
Nate,
I hope very much that people can understand that just because my overall experience was negative it does not mean I didn’t have fun. I have had a great time on occasion with the LARP group and I have made many good friends. Even in game I have had times of good fun and good RP.
I came to Changeling more than one time but only had a character for a few (spanning both you and Tasha as ST) . There was much observation and participation, people were generally friendly and eager to help me learn the system and to encourage participation.
Jen Dixon
Jake, thanks for posting! Send a link to your report and well get it up under the show notes section right away.
Vanessa,
Thank you for your post!
Fist off, I think it is fablous that you have found a community in which you can express yourself and one that acts as a tool for self discovery. I would like to say that LARPing is not a substitution for legitimate counseling. I see a high frequency of the LARP community i have been exposed to who dont work out their personal issues in a productive manner but use LARP to delve into deep emotional places. It can be dangerous and unhealthy.
I am not at all saying that you need help or are making unhealthy choices. I totally agree that we are all damaged in some fashion. Its kind of what makes being human tragically beautiful.
Jen Dixon
You played exactly once (a Spring Ogre), and Tasha has never been the storyteller of Changeling, only vampire and the domain. I do not wish to argue about this, it honestly doesn’t make a difference. You have made it quite clear you don’t wish to game with us nor associate with our unwashed and uneducated group.
While you speak far more kindly of us in your posts, your words into the microphone were unkind, and I believe unfairly so. That is your opinion, you are entitled to it.
I however, disagree.
[…] « Discussion Episode 20: Jen’s LARP Experience […]
You know what, I’m incredibly offended. As a one of the female LARPers from Des Moines I am not a broken, jobless whore. Nor am I a stripper wanna be. I have a college degree, work for a National bank (who by the way knows I’m in the Cam and doesn’t care) and am in a stable relationship that has been going on for two years now. Guess what I met him at LARP. “It’s not cheating if it’s IC” is not an acceptable concept for me and never will be.
I have a life outside of game as well. I have dance practice, archery practice, hot air ballooning and volunteer at the Public Library here in Des Moines. I see my family frequently and will always put them first and fore most before game.
We also didn’t get murdered on the proxy to Egypt. Sure, we got jumped by bad guys, but we all made it out alive.
I’m even more angry about the fact that we were all more than happy to talk with you and even do a podcast, but unfortunately you canceled and never rescheduled. We were all outright attacked and were given no chance of defending ourselves. I don’t care that it’s your opinion. As soon as you start airing this sort of thing via the internet it becomes more than just that.
Never once did you try to discuss the problems with us which is sad and unfortunate. Yes, Des Moines has a few problems we can work on. Are we? Yes. Because we’re adults and can sit down and discuss the issues and bring constructive criticism to the table.
What hurts the most and saddens though is that I thought you were a friend. I visited you in the hospital when you shattered your leg. I cleaned up your apartment so when you go home you could maneuver more easily. We hung out, had lunched and talked about non-cam things.
I guess I was wrong though since you essentially stabbed me in the back slandered my name and attempted to tear down my self-esteem.
I was a cam member for well over a decade, I say WAS because after that long amount of time I realized I detest not only the organization for what it has become but also the type of people drawn to it. Sure there are people who are “damaged goods” that’s unfortunate but really I don’t give a damn to hear about your damage while trying to enjoy my hobby. I like Jen’s candidness and she hit’s many nails directly on the head.
I will never rejoin the cam, I have no desire to hate a hobby I put time and effort into period. I would rather collect dead people’s vital fluids then ever go there again.
Jen also hit the smelly one’s on the head, a large number of c”cammies” smell like they never heard of soup or anything other then fabreez so far as not stinking. News for those people, wash your bodies and hair and change your clothes more then once a week. I am not saying all cam members smell, not even half do but those that do should be taken aside and politely informed they offend, actions and words offend others, so does stink.
It’s amazingly funny how so many characters in the cam “use sex” as a way of getting something, no you really don’t you may believe you do but that’s a lame excuse for teenage sexual bs pent up in people with zero social skills outside portraying a character so you don’t just sit in front of a computer all day long stinking and drinking Mt. Dew.
Hi.
I’m Natasha, and I’m part of the Cult.
(Actually to be technical, I’m part of two Cults, but I digress.)
In fact, I am the leader of the Cult in Des Moines, or at least, part Cult Leader. In the Camarilla, I am the Domain Storyteller for Des Moines, which was used as an example in this clipping. I argue that based on the one-sided aspects presented in this pod cast, I am the main whipping girl for the Des Moines game.
There were some valid points brought to the cast by Jennifer. I will agree that games that are run on such a level as the Camarilla is, there are bound to be problems.
The most basic problem is, and will always remain, people’s ideas of fun.
Look at any gaming group, table top, larp, heck look at any sporting event. Everyone has their own opinions on the interpretation of rules, on how the game setting should look, even right on down to who should be in control of what in a game. Every game I have ever played in, table top or other wise have had their House Rules documents, things the storytellers, dungeon masters, game masters, ect have not allowed in play for whatever reason. It happens.
However, we do as all gamers do.
We crack open the books, try our best, and hopefully people leave the evening having had fun. Yes, as part of this sort of organization, we can’t just kick people out who suck at role playing. And you know what? I wouldn’t even if I could. Why? Because some of the best times I have ever had, or will continue to have are from poor role players who finally have decided to let it out and rock the house. The looks on their faces when they pull their scheme off, make that passionate speech before everyone, or even the expressions on everyone’s face around them as they are wow’d by that poor roleplayer makes it worth having them there.
Laziness.
It happens to everyone. Including people who game as often as some of the Larper’s do. One day, we leave our costume at home. We decide that really, we are truly just coming to game to just watch, get paperwork done. (I’ve seen players show up to write term papers.) And that goes for the Storytellers too. Somedays, it just doesn’t pay to play and everyone has nights they are so off, it’s not even funny. And that is not the Camarilla or the aspect of Larp’s fault. That is just flat out laziness. It’s a human condition.
Ah yes, the human condition.
For the record, this member of the cult has a professional job.
I work for a financial institution. As does my significant other who also larps. (No. I have never felt the need to fuck someone at game, just FYI. And as in real life, other people’s sexual fun times are their own problems, and not something for me to judge nor be judged by. So if my desire to fuck only one person at a time offends you, tough!)
Anyways, back to humanity. I work in a financial institution. I sit in a room filled with computers and cubicles, and you know what stimulating conversation I get to have with people? These people with their high power jobs, and degrees, and so forth? I get to hear about their latest sexual exploit at the bar that everyone goes to after work on Friday…on Saturday.. on Sunday.. and how they are still hung over on Monday and they are NOT sure how they are going to get the sleeze they picked up at the bar on Friday off the couch.
Oh yes. Because having a high power job prevents people from being boring fucking people or any more cultured. In fact, I happen to know several of my co-workers who all live together. Amazingly enough, so they can pack in more of their favorite hobbies they want to do, and also because well, it’s just cheaper. (I don’t know if you have looked out the window, but the job markets suck now-a-days, and even people who have money coming out their ears, well… it’s not flowing as regularly as it once did. It has been KILLER on those bar-going girls. Killer.)
In fact, some of these people bond together because they want to support one another. They are single parents. They are just single. They are lonely. They want to have people around them always. That is what “Family” does. That is what “Friends” do. We bond together under the banner of something familiar and cling. Some people talk about what happened at the bar. (Boring to me!) Some people talk about what happened at work. (Sometimes boring.) Sometimes people talk about their kids. (Aw… cute.. shut up.) Some people talk about movies, books. (And argue, very loudly!) And then gamers talk about game. (Whoo hoo! Sometimes boring, but at least I can follow along.)
We talk about what we like to relate to.
Do I know personally what EVERY member of our local group does when they are not at game? No. I am not close to EVERY member of the group. And I am okay with that. As time goes on, we know one another better. We share those stupid gamer instances and then we discover through some banter that both of us have seen the same movie and damnit, we should both go to the next one together. That is how friends work. We do what we like together, otherwise it would be work. (Go figure.)
Larp, like any social convention has it’s issues. As some people have pointed out, “OMG it’s the FREAKS! They are in a pack coming straight for us!!! SAVE ME!” But that’s exactly it. Some of us are freaks. And we know we have mental, social, physical issues. Some of us are completely normal, we just have this one thing we like to do. Some of us have SEVERE mental issues and maybe playing “Let’s Pretend” is not healthy at all.
But you know what? We are there for one another.
Someone moves. We show up. Someone’s family member dies. We show up. Someone is depressed. We show up. Someone says they just are having a bad financial situation. We show up. Someone just needs someone to rant at. We show up. Someone is sent to the hospital. We show up. Someone says they need time. We give it to them.
Like all humans, we are not 100% perfect. Sometimes the flag waving around saying, “I NEED HELP.” We miss. Sometimes, we cannot help but close our eyes and say, “I’m sorry you are hurt but I can’t help you right now with this.”
That is human. We can only try.
That is what ALL social groups do. We try to help one another. We fight with one another. We establish a pecking order, and then we protect one another.
And you know what, for a global organization, the Camarilla does take care of it’s own. Locally we try to pull it together, and if it’s super major, we are able to tap the regional, national and global levels and pull support from EVERYONE in the organization. We do charities not only for organizations, but I have donated money to other members for medical bills, and so forth as it has come across my desk, so to speak.
So. Myself, I am good with being one of those people who are in the “Gaming” house with the significant other who also Larps and am a member of the Camarilla. Not because I can RP 24/7 as apparently people have the impression I do. But because I know that if I am having a shitty ass day, I am going to have a shoulder to beat on. I am going to have someone fighting with me about my own stupidity.
Now, I have stuck to some of the highlighted general points in this podcast that really got under my nails. There are some specific aspects that were addressed in the veiled, “Oh we are not going to talk about Des Moines, but we are going to knife them from behind, ” examples throughout the podcast that I would love to address. They were badly described, badly addressed, and really, the fact that NONE of the facts were even remotely checked before the podcast, wow.
I appreciate Jennifer’s opinion. But I will be honest to say she lost me around twenty minutes in when she started attacking people she did not like specifically, and left out MUCH of her background involving how she conducted her romp through the domain in her podcast. (But don’t worry, she was ONLY using it as an example. Let us not worry about the gaming group in the middle who’s name was bleated out due to Jennifer wanting to spy on them next, but she could not extend the same courtesy to people she claims she wanted to befriend and that was her only reason for coming to play. But hey…. we all have our hobbies!)
The Unwashed Masses in Des Moines was contacted by Jennifer several weeks ago, perhaps dare I say, months ago to do interviews about Larp and the larp experience. I volunteered, gladly, and without hesitation. Yet, it was rescheduled. To this date, I have not been asked to come back for that interview. I am curious if the interview was designed to make sure that her opinion could look more valid as she skewed facts with voice tracks, but we shall see. That is just -MY- opinion. I look forward to the day when the interview is rescheduled and we are able to express and debate as Jennifer has said she wishes to do on this subject. (Yet, seems unable to do so without a podcast before her.)
Thank you.
May the Cult be with you.
Oh, I forgot to mention. I have been working on interviewing members of the Cam LARP, both from Des Moines and Ames to hear about their experiences and thoughts for the follow up episode. I was able to collect many positive interviews from Ames already. I had to postpone the Des Moines interviews due to conflict with my Roller Derby league but Im hoping to get them together soon.
For those of you who have offered to be interviewed. This topic created much more buzz than I originally thought it would so I’m currently working on a plan to get interviews and discussions that further the discussion. I will contact you all shortly.
Thanks,
Jennifer Dixon
Jen Dixon
I think it would be a real challenge to your own superior intellect, Jen, to attempt to phrase constructive criticism without using a cuss word. I teach English at one of the largest universities in America and would love to help you learn to use a thesaurus. It might surprise you to know that I am also a Cam LARPer.
The part about “damamged” women should have absolutely been cut out. That was completely out of line. You are dealing with a group of people who many are nerds and social outcasts and many do have social issues. But to single the women out as ‘damaged’ is completely sexist and derogatory.
Additionally, most of the information you claim as fact (how STs are appointed, that characters cannot be from Egypt) is completely erroneous. You do not need to worry about anyone mistaking your little show for news.
Many of the personal issues you bring up (social hygine, people have different moral standards, people being obsessed with the game) are only human issues you are having with individuals. They are not issues with how the Camarilla is actually constructed or how games are actually ran. Had you focused only on *LARPing* your commentary would have been completely different. Also, those same issues will be found among all areas of geekdom, be they sci-fi, anime, table-top, collectable card players, or computer gamers. I can assure you that you do not want to visit the local game shop on Magic: The Gathering tournament night or the smell and boistrous jeering will hit you when you open the door. However, that says nothing about how the *game* of Magic is ran or how to be successful at it. Additionally, when you did actually talk about how the game was run or the Camarilla, it was so blatantly erroneous to even the most lay-member of the organization that it only showed just how ignorant you are of this hobby and how poorly you researched it.
In short, your rant was a horrid display of personal attacks and was not an objective observation of this intriguing passtime. I feel very sorry for the people of Des Moines who let you into their world and have now only once again been embarrased, wedgied, and stuffed into the locker of life by a bully who was only using them as a science experiment and now is parading their foibles for all to see. You said yourself that you went in and ‘saw problems that needed to be fixed.’ The Camarilla has been around for almost 20 years. It has lasted because it *does* work. Your 9 months of “experience” does not give you a basis to construct how the organization should be run. This is not to say that you should not have done it at all. I think an objective, factual, indepth analysis of how the Camarilla and LARPing works would have been interesting (and even beneficial to new players or old players looking for how to get more out of gaming). Instead, you have only worked to make a fringe group of individuals who are only looking for outlets and fun even more ostracised from the larger society that has already rejected them.
I hope you feel proud of yourself.
Wow, I’ve got to point out that there are several good reasons to fuck that particular player, but the only one that relates to pity is that he had you for a so-called-friend.
I’ve listened to your opinion for the past hour and a half. Now it’s my turn. Thankfully, mine won’t take as long.
First: I, as a woman, do not appreciate being called damaged. In any way. We all have our problems. It’s not right to separate a single group from everyone when everyone deals with things.
Second: “19 year old goth girl.” Separate character from person. Seriously. People DO still dress up for their characters, and they don’t necessarily dress that way any other time.
Third: Hygiene. We have it. I brush my teeth twice a day, at least. Most everyone I’ve discussed this with have said the same thing.
I’m now going to end this and continue to question why I sat through the length of this, when obviously I didn’t need to listen to one person’s opinion. Though I am offended and upset about what you’ve said, I’m not going to be the one to call you out on anything.
Enjoy the pain you’ve caused. We who disagree, who have been personally called out, or are angry at the offense towards our family will stand together and watch your bridge with us burn. I’ll be happy to light a match with the others.
First off trying to go in order. Sorry if I miss something. Writing this as I listen.
If you are just sitting around for the first part of game you are missing out on what I think of as the best part of game. Personally I like to play my own little game of if I have to role dice I’ve already lost. I’m sad that you missed out of something awesome and a great place for good story.
Next most of the people here at least have real lives. We have jobs, we go out and hang out, we do lots of things that have nothing to do with the game.
I’m also sorry that you worded things in such a manner that makes us sound worse then we are. I think you know what you did and I think you did it on purpose. I think you did it for humor and it may be what you honestly think but personally I wouldn’t ever want to game with you.
OH and about characters dying. It’s dots on a sheet. If your character dies just put some new dots on a different sheet!
Morals are not a questionable thing in larp. I have good morals. I’m think I”m a pretty good person. Some of my characters hit on people but I always preface it with telling them oocly that I’m in a relationship and very happy so that they understand that I’m not really hitting on them.
You are missing some interesting stuff. Most of the awesome things that happen at our games happen AT game.
DARK PLACES it’s called DARK PLACES on the map. It is controlled by the dark places on the map st. Like for instance Paris is a dark place on the map, lots of vampires go visit Paris.
You can be a Native America. Now the real native Americans in cam might make fun of you if you get it wrong.
A Cult? really? A cult? I’m not even going to address this as it is ridiculous.
Okay…so getting to the end of it. Your right it didn’t go over well. I’m not even going to address this either cause it’s just wrong.
I larp because it’s fun.
Sorry if this seems a little disjointed. I wrote it as I was listening.
The player who’s character died. I know him personally, he’s been a good friend for years. I felt insulted that you implied that even if a girl did throw themselves at him, wanting to have sex with him just because a character died, that he would be shallow enough to sleep with her. He’s a good man who has morals and standards, and you should not slander someone like that without really knowing them. And for the record, even though we’ve met in person, I’ve never slept with him. He’s a friend, and that’s all we’ve ever been, and not the kind with “benefits.”
And just because you can not differentiate between your characters actions, thoughts, and beliefs does not make it wrong that others can. This does not make us bad people as you seemed to imply. Because yes I can in character hang all over a male character if my character would, but I would never have sex in person with someone just because my character would have sex with theirs. There is such a thing as a black dot. Flirting, teasing, all are perfectly find up until a point where I feel it would be inappropriate since I am in a relationship. I can say my character kisses and has sex with another, but there is no reason and it is never justifiable to act these actions out in character even if I or the other person are single. That’s what the black dot is for, it signals an end of role play and the point where narration begins or things just fade to black with no descriptions, depending upon the two people involved.
And as someone who has ST’d in the past…. I never played my characters locally, expect to nearly have one killed off just because I exposed my character to the same dangers as every other character in the city during the hunter plot that was being run in my city. When I did get to play my character it was in games outside of my city, and even that was an uncommon occurrence. So I personally felt offended when you said ST’s and DC’s get the cool characters. Do you have any idea how hard it is to have a cool character when you barely get to play them? And before you go thinking that as an ST I had special approvals… I preferred to play characters with no, or limited approvals. I don’t have the special snow flake syndrome and think the more interesting stories are based around watching the progression of regular joe type characters as they struggle to make it in a world that’s stacked against them.
Even though we’ve met many times, you don’t know me – at all. I sincerely feel like you’ve passed judgment on myself and my friends without ever giving ME a chance to actually know you, or for you to ever know me. Your blanket statements and generalization paint me as some depraved, unemployed, unwashed member of a cult (and I’m not). Here’s few things about me: I have a job, a well cared for and happy family, an active social life (that contains much more than gaming), I’m a martial artist and exercise regularly to maintain good health, I bathe and I‘m clean and well-kept, I have a long-term loving relationship with someone that doesn’t game AT ALL, I hang out with Cammies frequently and can spend hours upon hours with them socially without ever getting into game topics. I am not a swinger, nor am I involved in some kind of broken love triangle and I do not treat game as a dating pool, foreplay, or have rampant sexual issues. I have a GREAT time at game, been part of good story, fabulous role-play, and I spend very little time (a few hours at most) outside of game working on game-related activities. I’m in no way a narcissist (secret or otherwise). I can talk about myself easily and have no need to create a character to express those non-existent issues.
From my perspective, your perceptions of what happened with plot and NPC ramifications were skewed and inaccurate – and I was directly involved with the “shit plot” you mentioned. My character did not die or suffer consequences that could not be described as anything but good RP and good story. The material drawn from was sanctioned, published material that was no more powerful in a table-top setting as it was for LARP. I find it disappointing that long-distance players were so afraid of plot risk that they couldn’t handle a simple base-line villain.
I admit that some of your basic points about LARP in general at the beginning of the interview makes sense and are difficult to handle since conversion from table top to the more social setting of a LARP is difficult and organizing and adjudicating rules for so many people at once is difficult. However, many of your points are completely without fact checking or blatantly inaccurate.
I’m surprised at what you say you saw. It’s 100% the opposite of my experiences with the SAME group of people. I am deeply disturbed and saddened by how bad your experience was and can‘t fathom how it was that you came to this conclusion. It looks to me like you intentionally went hunting for the WORST in people as a retaliation for personal social drama that came up with your intimate connections with members of the domain. I will boldly tell you that my female friends are not damaged goods whose daddies didn’t love them and it really hurts to see such a personal attack on people you probably don’t know worth a damn.
I can’t help but think that you got hurt by friends and decided to lash out them. I want to believe your intentions weren’t malicious, but I just have nearly no way to keep things within that frame. It sickens me that you’re not sorry about how coldly you espoused your undeniably hateful opinion that was designed so specifically to offend people. And even though you’ll likely claim to respect my opion on things, chances are that none of it will move you and you’ll likely rationalize that I’m somehow wrong about all this and that I was never worth getting to know in the first place. I’m sorry to say you’ve burned a bridge you never got to cross.
* Ireland — I actually talked with the Irish National Storyteller at a Con about this. He got sick of bad/drunken/neopagan concepts with bad accents who didn’t get their backgrounds okayed by them.
** In the Cam, if your character stayed in a city for any length of time as anything but a mortal, you’ve got to get an okay the Storyteller overseeing that city. This prevents twenty-three nutbars from just going around claiming, “My character owned the Empire State Building in 1874!”
* Slaves — not disallowed in the Addendum, but some individual, local Storytellers might disallow it… probably because of so many horrible backgrounds they’ve seen
* Native American — local Storytellers might disallow it because SO MANY PEOPLE have made horrible, horrible backgrounds based in stereotype.
* FBI “Watch List” — someone on the Club Director’s office said the Cam is classified as “harmless.”
* Dark Places on the Map — Actually have some really well-educated, history savvy individuals on staff… And yes, as someone who has proxied to Egypt, there’s a damn good reason why it’s dangerous.
* Approvals — Are easy.
* Proxies — Not always full of death.
* Social circle is better term than cult, since there’s zero religious involvement.
* Come to GLARE! It’ll be great! I’m running Charities, come volunteer.
You made some points- but sadly, it comes off as a microcosm of a Global organization.
For example, I live in Alaska- and I’ve been playing and a member of the Camarilla since 1995. For better or worse, the Camarilla has been a tremendous resource, giving me ready access to friends as far away as Ireland and as close as Seattle.
Do we have a number of people who don’t shine as examples of humanity? Yes. I’ll be the last to say otherwise. However, I’ve also met far more decent, smart people.
I hope your future experiences are better, and you don’t judge us by a single area.
Ms. Dixon;
Ever hear of Self-Fulfilling prophecy?
Because to me it sounds as if you went in with expectations, and then when the group lived up to the expectations you had, you merely said, AH I was right! You can do this with any large group of people, it is the reason why most sociologists try to loose their preformed conceptions and simply observe.
I strongly believe the failings of LARP and The Camarilla mentioned in this podcast are being mistaken as exclusive to the groups, when they are to be found in almost every social activity. I strongly encourage people listening to this podcast who are interested in role playing of any kind but are having doubts of doing so because of the negative social aspects mentioned, please give it a try and form your own opinions, not every group is the same, and some people just have different opinions of social groups depending on personal experience and length of time truly involved. Also, one personal opinion, the character Body Count and similar characters, should not be glorified in anyway, as for the most part the are detrimental to the enjoyment of the game by others.
On a personal note, I have been a part of the Des Moines Cam for about 2-3 years, and while I may have had a problem with certain game results or outcomes in the past, it happens. I do think there is a larger then necessary amount of “homework” involved, but I have rarely had any personal problem with another cammie on a problematic level.
This is just a note to let everybody know we’ve moved the comments to the forum: http://gravito.com/forum/index.php?topic=2120.0 Registration is required. Moderation is much more loose on the forum, and it’s better equipped to handle the volume of comment traffic we’re getting. Thanks again everybody for the great feedback! Feel free to continue the conversation in the forum.
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